My soon-to-be father-in-law gave me the business about running 50/50 E85/Regular in my 2004 Grand Prix GT. He said until I've seen the damage caused by pre-ignition, I shouldn't risk it in my vehicle.
That said, I respect the heck out of him - he used to be a huge gearhead back in the day before he became a family man. Used to tweak out engines, snowmobiles, whatever he could to make it faster, stronger, like the Million Dollar Man, only machines. He knows way more about engines than I could acquire in the rest of my lifespan... so, needless to say, I'm a little more wary about running E85 in my car now.
Have you or do you know someone who has seen engine damage caused by running E85 in a non-FFV vehicle? Not 'might-have-been-E85' damage, but real damage that is directly related to running E85? Pre-ignition can be a really bad thing for an engine, but does this happen with E85?
I've given plenty of room to dispute the naysayers by starting a list of cars that have run E85 without problems - but now I want to give the naysayers space to show me the damage caused by running E85 in non-FFVs that aren't tuned for it.
Show me what you got!
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6 comments:
The problem is not pre-ignition. At 100 octane or more, E85 is never going to cause pre-ignition.
The problem is that E85 can cause the mixture to run lean. Tell him that and see what he says!
The problem is that ethanol contains oxygen. As a result, the stoichiametric ratio for E85 will not be 15:1 as it will be for gasoline, it will be more like 10:1.
Flex fuel vehicles have fuel injectors that can add more fuel to get to the lower stoichiametric ratio.
All fuel injectors have some excess capacity, which is why all fuel injected cars can run mixtures of E85, if not straight E85.
If you use too much E85, your fuel injection system will run lean, and you'll get a check engine light. If you haven't gotten a CEL, you have not reached the limit of your fuel injection system, and you are not running lean. No engine damage will result.
Tell the old man all this and see what he says!
I would ditto what Buzz has stated. If it is an OBD2 system and you do not have a CEL you are still at stoich. I suspect that many that do get a CEL may still be at stoich but since the ECU sees it it outside of the normal range of long term trims it may throw a code for that reason--YET-i would not run an engine for any period with a lean code CEL. Alcohol will burn so cold compared to gas that it can get away with some lean burn EXCEPT in high compression or high turbo boost where the heat rises and octane requirement climbs. The only case i have heard of melted pistons was in a 13:1 compression large (custom modified) electrical generator that was carburated and the guy did not have a AFR meter, tuned it purposely lean, and did not know that E85 changed alcohol % throughout the season- he tuned it on E70 and cooked it on E85. Yhis would be because as the alcohol content climed it went even leaner.I suuspect he was running at a 65-80% steady load range. Carb setups set lean are very touchy because unlike EFI they cannot adjust AFR. In this situation of high compression, not only is the octane requirement nearly matched to E85 but as it goes leaner less cooling is occurring- heat and detonation then become an issue that would not be seen at the 8.5-10.2 range.
Regards- Alcohol
BTW- racers tend to pull plugs and read them after a run. With E85 your color will not be normal as there is less hydrocarbons to color the plug. In a well tuned engine running E85 the plug will appear white with only a slight tinge of light tan at the base of the ceter electrode. Make sure the electrode is not eroding and put it under a hand microscope and look for tiny flecks of embedded metal- if you see them you better back off your % alcohol or add fuel- damage is coming like a light in a train tunnel LOL.
Alcohol
I am running E85 in my supercharged carbed engine. I had to change the metering blocks to ones made for E85 by Quickfuel, then change the jet size. It has worked out great.
http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/carbtech.htm
The stations here in Tennessee are gouging us also, with E85 only about 10C a gallon cheaper. In my case, it is a choice of 110 Race Gas @ $7 a gallon, or E85. With there gouging, I have never seen another car at the E85 pump in 1 year.
I am running E85 in my 07 dodge ram 1500 with a 5.7 hemi. I can hit 60% alcohol with no CEL, but pure E85 throws one. Haven't had it read yet to see what the code is. So far no damage, just good performance and a 1.5 mpg loss.
I run e85 in my ford focus, with flex fuel kit, two years no trouble plugs look perfect mileage 30 gas 25 e85
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